Curse

Michael von Inferno · Aug 23, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Hey all,
I'd like to start with this: I hope that the build I'd like to present here has not already been presented by somebody else. In that case, please, forgive me.
Anyway, the build looks like this:
12+3+1 Leadership
12+1 Spear mastery
3+1 Command
(sometimes u can drop from spear mastery to get better command, I usually do that when i want to take skills as Stand your ground or others.)
1: Soldier's Fury (elite) 2: Save Yourselves 3: There's Nothing to Fear
4: They're on Fire 5: Anthem of Flame 6: Burning Refrain 7: Blazing Finale
8: optional, depends on situation, area etc.

Useful is one meele in team. With heroes and henchies its easy to keep up Burning ref., because they usually stick close to u. In human party its best to echo them shortly before battle, after battle its not so easy to keep up 6 before players are usually running somewhere else, making it hard to shout/chant them. One important thing is also not to use this build against foes who cannot be set on fire, for example destroyers.
I hope u'll like it atleast a bit

Cya and have a good time with your para

zelgadissan · Aug 23, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Since you're going to be the only one without retarded amounts of armor, why run an imbagon without a maxable shield? Also, why use 13 Spear in your primary setup without a single spear attack?

Honestly it seems like you were bringing They're on Fire for Soldier's Fury, but then you decided to try to make it useful and devoted the rest of your build to it. Your party should always have +100 armor so the reduction is often pointless (not to mention you have TNTF), and if you really want to make sure ToF is working, synergize with your team for a SF ele or something. Don't eat up your entire build just to work with a single skill.

Grim Aragorn · Aug 24, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

i saw 16 leadership, then i stopped reading

Zodiac Meteor · Aug 24, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

i saw 16 leadership, then i stopped reading

I read farther to 13 spear.

Your focusing on a build that needs burning, for gods sake for an imbagon that gives a constant +100 armor why would you need burning at all. Like a perma with a self heal, it does not mix well.

(Perma does need heal sometimes but you get the point.)

Michael von Inferno · Aug 24, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Since you're going to be the only one without retarded amounts of armor, why run an imbagon without a maxable shield? Also, why use 13 Spear in your primary setup without a single spear attack?

Like I've said, u can drop from spear mastery and put to command or motivation to max your shield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Honestly it seems like you were bringing They're on Fire for Soldier's Fury, but then you decided to try to make it useful and devoted the rest of your build to it. Your party should always have +100 armor so the reduction is often pointless (not to mention you have TNTF), and if you really want to make sure ToF is working, synergize with your team for a SF ele or something. Don't eat up your entire build just to work with a single skill.

If I'd need something to cover Soldier's fury, i'd bring Can't touch this. Lower price, longer duration... +37% protection from burning foes seems pretty good to me, monks dont have to do much with this protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

i saw 16 leadership, then i stopped reading

Now tell me why... If u have sup vigor, survivor insignias and +30hp spear and shield u don't really care about your health because it'll still be over 550. 16 leadership makes leadership pretty strong and u can afford skills with any cost because u'll always get energy back

MercenaryKnight · Aug 24, 2009, 10:06 AM // 10:06

No matter how hard you try, soldiers fury is just not the best. You would bring can't touch this? That would waste a skill slot to upkeep your ias. Even bringing their on fire is a waste to keep it up.

I prefer aggressive refrain and always will. I can upkeep it with tntf which is actually a useful skill which is good to bring for everyone.

I know a lot of people want an alternative, but it usually just doesn't compare well to the original build. I understand everyone wants variety and to be unique but it just isn't gonna happen.

Tenebrae · Aug 24, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

No matter how hard you try, soldiers fury is just not the best. You would bring can't touch this? That would waste a skill slot to upkeep your ias. Even bringing their on fire is a waste to keep it up.

No matter how many times you say it , Agg Ref is not the best and will never be. Soldiers fury solves many problems and doesnt leave you on almost perma -20 armor wich is like "Hey ! spike the hell out of me , im the lowest AL with SY up !" . Any useful shout can mantain SFury and add support to the team (yes , SY and more ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I prefer aggressive refrain and always will. I can upkeep it with tntf which is actually a useful skill which is good to bring for everyone.

TNTF is but the rest of your entire bar is devoted to 1 skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I know a lot of people want an alternative, but it usually just doesn't compare well to the original build. I understand everyone wants variety and to be unique but it just isn't gonna happen.

Dont be mistaken , saying imbagon is the best alternative for a P ever is a lie . Imbagon is a "always good , and at least not bad" set up for the only P in the group but is far far from being the best alternative to a P in all cases.

Talking about that build .... yeah 16 leadership is def not worth , not at all .

Picuso · Aug 24, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No matter how many times you say it , Agg Ref is not the best and will never be. Soldiers fury solves many problems and doesnt leave you on almost perma -20 armor wich is like "Hey ! spike the hell out of me , im the lowest AL with SY up !" . Any useful shout can mantain SFury and add support to the team (yes , SY and more ).

86 armor = "spike me"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

TNTF is but the rest of your entire bar is devoted to 1 skill.

Focused Anger (and FGJ! as an option) is an "entire bar"? O_O

Tenebrae · Aug 24, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

86 armor = "spike me"?

... im the lowest AL with SY up . Reading ftw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Focused Anger (and FGJ! as an option) is an "entire bar"? O_O

Option ? yeah because without FGJ you are gonna keep 100% of the time SY up. Focused anger , Agg refrain , FGJ , SY and Enduring Harmony if you are wise . In my town those are 5 skills , not sure in yours and i dont think you can do a lot of things with the rest of the slots but there you go , maybe not "entire bar" but most of it .

Picuso · Aug 24, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

... im the lowest AL with SY up . Reading ftw.

You can say the same about Godmode Wars. Invalid argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Option ? yeah because without FGJ you are gonna keep 100% of the time SY up. Focused anger , Agg refrain , FGJ , SY and Enduring Harmony if you are wise . In my town those are 5 skills , not sure in yours and i dont think you can do a lot of things with the rest of the slots but there you go , maybe not "entire bar" but most of it .

FA, AR and SY are enough. FGJ if you really need SY 100% up. I don't know why would you take Enduring with FA + FGJ (FGJ is used only to cover FA recharge)

I started using FGJ too, but 15 seconds is not a "nightmare" without extra adrenaline. (And you can time your last SY to cover some more seconds).

Tenebrae · Aug 24, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

You can say the same about Godmode Wars. Invalid argument.

Argument ? invalid word dude. Im not arguing about SY here nor Godmode wars , you are getting it wrong. Read OP , keywords "another style"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

FA, AR and SY are enough. FGJ if you really need SY 100% up. I don't know why would you take Enduring with FA + FGJ (FGJ is used only to cover FA recharge)

You would if adren gain wasnt capped or bugged ( better said ) but anyway , like i said before , that is offtopic , has nothing to do with this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

I started using FGJ too, but 15 seconds is not a "nightmare" without extra adrenaline. (And you can time your last SY to cover some more seconds).

You are answering to a question no one pointed out . Offtopic done i wont answer anymore

.

Calista Blackblood · Aug 24, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

It doesn't take much for one of the seven other party members to remove the cracked armor from you once every what? 26 seconds @16Leadership.

Racthoh · Aug 24, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Any useful shout can mantain SFury and add support to the team (yes , SY and more ).

There are no useful shouts that can maintain Soldier's Fury without being redundant and requiring an outside source to make them useful. Soldier's Fury works out to 5 extra attacks a minute over Aggressive Refrain when you factor in the time you take to recast Soldier's Fury, with significantly less adrenaline coming in compared to Focused Anger.

The Cracked Armor argument only comes into play when using Hero/Hench in Cantha because the AI is so terrible condition removal. Even then the massive amounts of defense provided by the Paragon are still enough to overcome that issue.

Also, Focused Anger and "For Great Justice!" fuel offense as well. You will not be able to hit your energy attack skills with as much frequency without those skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

It doesn't take much for one of the seven other party members to remove the cracked armor from you once every what? 26 seconds @16Leadership.

That's still 5 energy that could be put to better use elsewheres. Be it a Shield of Absorption, a 200+ point Word of Healing, there are always better things to do with 5 energy then remove Cracked Armor from a Paragon.

Calista Blackblood · Aug 24, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

That's still 5 energy that could be put to better use elsewheres. Be it a Shield of Absorption, a 200+ point Word of Healing, there are always better things to do with 5 energy then remove Cracked Armor from a Paragon.

I know,I was making a point that -20 armor because of cracked armor can be easily solved,and really is no excuse to exclude from the bar.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 24, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No matter how many times you say it , Agg Ref is not the best and will never be. Soldiers fury solves many problems and doesnt leave you on almost perma -20 armor wich is like "Hey ! spike the hell out of me , im the lowest AL with SY up !" . Any useful shout can mantain SFury and add support to the team (yes , SY and more ).

TNTF is but the rest of your entire bar is devoted to 1 skill.

Dont be mistaken , saying imbagon is the best alternative for a P ever is a lie . Imbagon is a "always good , and at least not bad" set up for the only P in the group but is far far from being the best alternative to a P in all cases.

Talking about that build .... yeah 16 leadership is def not worth , not at all .

Soldier's fury requires a shout to be on you at all times. Most of which you use will be useless. Their on fire is pretty much useless as well as can't touch this. So your wasting that skill right there just for your own ias.

With my regular imbagon bar I can buff any damage characters with my vanguard ward. I can also do decent amount of damage with my spear attacks.

Even with soldier's fury your still the "lowest al class". Even if it's 20 more armor it won't matter much to the real points that matter. A lot of the fatal damage comes from skills that won't be effected by al.

People keep trying to prove soldier's fury is better. Yet most of the people still fight back to say the original is better. There will always be a few people on soldier's fury side.

If none of them are willing to open their minds to see things without a bias then this thread is doomed to be closed. Be open to both sides or don't bother debating which is better. The only way for it to be solved is to have one side see the other is better.

Tenebrae · Aug 24, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

There are no useful shouts that can maintain Soldier's Fury without being redundant and requiring an outside source to make them useful. Soldier's Fury works out to 5 extra attacks a minute over Aggressive Refrain when you factor in the time you take to recast Soldier's Fury, with significantly less adrenaline coming in compared to Focused Anger.

False. Redundant and an outside source to make them useful ? lol sorry for trying to SYNC with my team while playing a support class . Yes , you know im talking about SYG , its great and works great. Remember that if you have TNTF on your bar ( cough*always*cough ) you only have to cover about 12-8 secs to keep SFury working therefore ,theres no valid argument in "mantaining" SFury being an issue. If someone cant mantain Sfury working 100% of the time , please delete your paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The Cracked Armor argument only comes into play when using Hero/Hench in Cantha because the AI is so terrible condition removal. Even then the massive amounts of defense provided by the Paragon are still enough to overcome that issue.

Its not an argument , its an issue no matter what you say and if you get hit in HM by 2-3 good damage spells in 1 sec , hell you well see the diff in those 20 less armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Also, Focused Anger and "For Great Justice!" fuel offense as well. You will not be able to hit your energy attack skills with as much frequency without those skills.

The thing is that this thread is about another style of imbagon , if you are gonna come selling FAnger , FGJ and Agg Ref + SY this is not your place , that is the same imbagon we all know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

That's still 5 energy that could be put to better use elsewheres. Be it a Shield of Absorption, a 200+ point Word of Healing, there are always better things to do with 5 energy then remove Cracked Armor from a Paragon.

Yea, and Calista post its assuming the imbagon has no GFTE or anything else and theres no other P or Shouter in the party that can make Cracked Armor reapply every 5-10 sec. Yes , tell your monk/healer not to remove the condition , i dare you ... fair enough.

Seriously , try to stick to "another style" of Imbagon or Paragon with Sy or whatever but dont tell a story we already read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

If none of them are willing to open their minds to see things without a bias then this thread is doomed to be closed. Be open to both sides or don't bother debating which is better. The only way for it to be solved is to have one side see the other is better.

Good recomendation wich i suggest you to follow. Imagine for 1 sec that Agg ref , focused anger and FGJ dont exist and you have to make another style of imbagon that is not better , not worse , just different .... please dont come up with the same story over and over ....

I Jonas I · Aug 25, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Soldier's fury requires a shout to be on you at all times. Most of which you use will be useless. Their on fire is pretty much useless as well as can't touch this. So your wasting that skill right there just for your own ias.

Explain to me how this is different from taking anthem of flame on a bar with aggressive refrain. Then explain to me why not having -20 armor is a bad thing, especially on the only character in your party that doesn't have 160 AL or more.

Reverend Dr · Aug 25, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Drunken Master.

-only 1 skill slot required

-no stopping to recast anthem/soldiers ever

-no cracked armor

-costs only 5 energy every 90 seconds

Hell I use this on my paragon sober simply because I can't stand stopping to recast shit every 10-30 seconds and even sober it is still not difficult to keep SY up 100%.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 25, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Explain to me how this is different from taking anthem of flame on a bar with aggressive refrain. Then explain to me why not having -20 armor is a bad thing, especially on the only character in your party that doesn't have 160 AL or more.

Playing with -20 armor doesn't suddenly mean you are going to die when you go out even in the hardest of areas. You still have healers, and most likely if you have heroes will have a protective spirit for the huge damage dealers (most of which ignore armor).

I generally don't notice much if any difference with -20 armor. Because a simple protective spirit on my hero will basically make most of the lethal damage (that'd still be near lethal with 20 more armor) easier to manage.

Stand your ground is only for you. Save yourselves is boosting all your allies armor. So your slotting stand your ground only for your own ias again.

Yes every paragon does bring tntf, but the case is your still slotting stand your ground to keep up your ias.

I think instead of arguing about the soldier's fury skill set maybe Tenebrae could post your entire soldier's fury based imbagon build and then we can compare it to the original. Kind of hard to debate each build if the main argument on soldier's fury doesn't have a set build up to find problems or improvements.

Tenebrae · Aug 26, 2009, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Playing with -20 armor doesn't suddenly mean you are going to die when you go out even in the hardest of areas. You still have healers, and most likely if you have heroes will have a protective spirit for the huge damage dealers (most of which ignore armor).

You are guessing centurions armor right ? because if you play with anything else your general armor will be 60 ( 80-20 ) + 16 = 76 . Not good , def not good if you get spiked or attacked while low HP. Healer prots react , dont prevent , they are IA , you will have to micro it .

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I generally don't notice much if any difference with -20 armor. Because a simple protective spirit on my hero will basically make most of the lethal damage (that'd still be near lethal with 20 more armor) easier to manage.

Yeah and frenzy is great but you better dont use it under attack . Like ractoh say , those 5 energy can be used for a lot of things instead removing/preventing damage on you because you didnt use SFury or Drunken Master.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Stand your ground is only for you. Save yourselves is boosting all your allies armor. So your slotting stand your ground only for your own ias again.

Wrong , read skill description before writing , its so easy. SYG and SY are for party members , not allies .

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Yes every paragon does bring tntf, but the case is your still slotting stand your ground to keep up your ias.

Classic Imbagon has free slots and no one is gonna argue what you use in them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I think instead of arguing about the soldier's fury skill set maybe Tenebrae could post your entire soldier's fury based imbagon build and then we can compare it to the original. Kind of hard to debate each build if the main argument on soldier's fury doesn't have a set build up to find problems or improvements.

So you realise you were arguing against something that wasnt even there just because your blind faith on classic imbagon right ?. The thing is that this is not FAnger vs SFury , its another style of imbagon . The OP choose Sfury as the elite , not me , but you can try a diff aproach instead trying to bring down any build someone shares.
And btw , i dont play as an imbagon , i play as a P with SY